JABS is down again

This is the funniest thing I've seen in ages. Anthony Cox, scourge of Cybertigger, points out that JABS, when it's down, actually gives you a useful error message.

As he says: "However, one has to marvel at the insight that the forum's software has, even when it is broken"

ADODB.Recordset error '800a0bb9'

Arguments are of the wrong type, are out of acceptable range, or are in conflict with one another.

/forum/forum.asp, line 330

Maybe you have to be a geek to find that funny…

More quackery and snake oil

Aobbard, that darling of the mental asks;

does anyone know the best safe home water treatment for spring water that may be contaminated with ecoli?!!!

What this has to do with vaccination is beyond me, but maybe she thinks that anti-vaxxers have all the answers to her health issues (and believe me, she has a lot). I'd also want to ask what she's doing wanting to drink e-coli contaminated spring water, and how one earth does she know it's contaminated with e-coli in the first place. But then I remembered - she's mental. Occam48 provides a very sensible solution (as he is wont to do); boil the water.

If you are only worried about E coli just bring to the boil, it's not a spore former, but E coli's a marker of faecal contamination, so there are other wider concerns. Why not contact the local Environmental health or even DEFRA office

Occam48's one of the good guys. He does what I used to do, popping up on the JABS forum to point out where people are talking (or in this case, possibly consuming) shit. He deserves a medal. Anyway, I digress.

Suba, not happy with Occam's sensible answer, feels the need to throw in some woo.

You do not have to boil water. You could add some stabilised oxygen also known as "vitamin O". You might just get some extra health benefits too!

Christ on a bike, someone's pushing their new favourite quackery. "Vitamin 'O'"??? You might as well suggest "Essence of duck breath".

Aobbard, cretin that she is, replies:

Thanks for that. For some time I have felt that there is not enough O2 getting to my brain!!!

To be honest, Aobbard (or may I call you Adrienne?), I'd suggest not enough blood getting to your brain might be more of a problem. You're a credulous moron with no more capacity for rational thought than a toadstool.

Stabilised oxygen has an interesting history: Take a look here. Stabilised oxygen is in fact salt water. The link provides you with all kinds of interesting information on companies who have been fined for making false claims about it and its supposed health benefits.

Not *that* open-minded then?

Continuing from the theme below, FionaS has made the perfect JABS post, a post which explains exactly why the site shouldn't be taken seriously by anyone looking for medical advice about vaccines.

Most of the posters on the site claim to spend a lot of time "researching", with "open minds", "weighing up" the "evidence". All sounds very scientific and laudable so far. Most of this research is done on whack-job alt-health sites like "What Doctors Don't Tell You", yet as soon as they come across a piece from a reputable news source - in this case the BBC - which doesn't fit with their pre-conceived ideas, they start spouting this kind of nonsense:

Also this could be a hot lot. It is either really rubbish journalism or economy with the truth to not mention this in the article.

I think this is another effort to erode our right to informed consent when it comes to medical procedures administered to our children.

So, perhaps not quite as open minded as they'd like to think.

FUD, and maths

A post from Squib has had me laughing my arse off, for multiple reasons.
Firstly;

Looks like the BBC is spreading FUD again

For those of you not aware of the acronym, FUD stands for "Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt". Precisely what the JABS crew, under the aegis of Dr Wakefield and his lackey, John Stone have been doing all these years. Let me put this in words of very few syllables. There is no evidence that the MMR jab causes autism. But JABS is there to make you think that there may be just the tiniest chance - and if they don't get you on MMR, they'll try with HPV vaccine - another vaccine for which there is no evidence of harm, but the JABbers keep whispering "but there might be, but there might be…".

Anyway, Squib then goes on to criticise the BBC report she's referring to, with the following line:

Their estimates for MMR at 1.4 per 100,000 are intriguing. This paper below for the US gives estimates of 14.4 cases 1,000,000 doses of MMR.
Perhaps the NHS should recommend parents sending the children over there for their jabs.
I wonder if someone needs to change the batteries in their slide rule?

Now, unless the fundamentals of mathematics have changed since I was at school, 1.4 per 100,000 is the same as 14.4 per million (give or take a decimal place). So yes, Squib, you halfwit, you need the batteries changing in your slide rule. And ideally, get some new ones fitted to your brain, you moron.

(The report is on the high rates of anaphylaxis among children who've had single vaccines: 18.9 / 100,000 for measles and 22.4 / 100,000 for rubella, as opposed to 1.4 / 100,000 for MMR - single vaccines are safer are they? I think not.)

Here's the BBC story

Simple quackery

Typical. As soon as I post that it's down, JABS gets a new lease of life, and carries on promoting its rubbish. Truth Seeker posts the following:

Selenium, zinc, vitamin c, echinacea and elderberry syrup/extract/wine i feel would be far better prophylactics than the flu jab without any nasty side effects.

This is just crap. Even Cybertiger has, in the past, advertised 'flu jabs for the elderly on his practice's website. (Of course he then goes onto JABS and denounces them as evil, but that's because he's a muddle-headed cretin.)

JABS is down

JABS has been down for the last couple of days, hence the reason I've not posted anything. I did wonder if it was just my IP address that had been banned, but it appears not.

If it comes back up, I'll let a spider grab a copy of the site so I can always go and dig for idiocy in the archives.

Must be kicking out time again

Gus has been to the pub again!

WHO!!! SAT him on the naughty step??W.Mitty..eh!! We believe Steve??Take a seat mate were all mates here mate ,now tell us all mate, your point is mate ,as CT asks mate ?eh! MARMATE YOUR MATE STEVES YUR MATE!!!!ha ha! AND IM ANT VACCINE TOO ..PIGS FLYING BYE 6 FLOORS UP STEVEIE BOY /TROLL/GIRL/IT??

If anyone finds out what pub Gus drinks in, please let me know. They obviously serve something very special in there.

The arrogance

Aobbard appears to be trying to start a family feud. Her sister hasn't listened to her foaming at the mouth idiocy about vaccines. Crime of the century, obviously, in aobbard's book:

I am so mad at my sister who has allowed my neice to have this vaccine without doing any research or listening to me.

Let's look at the facts, shall we? Aobbard believes everything is bad for her: fluoride, vaccines and especially "electrosmog", the latter being so bad that she wears a special apron to sit in front of a computer. She also believes in Morgellon's Syndrome and chemtrails. She is, in fact, a health conspiracy nutjob, class 1. Is anyone surprised that her sister doesn't listen to her? I imagine that if she [her sister] had any concerns, she probably talked them over with health professionals; people who've actually had some training in medical matters - not loons whose medical knowledge comes from rapaciously consuming every idiot and quack website out there on the internet.

John Stone sucks Cybertiger's cock…

… metaphorically, I hope.

Were I not banned at JABS, I'd obviously post this there, and politely point out why he's being a disingenuous cocksucker. As it's my blog, I'll do it here and point it out in no uncertain terms. Rudely.

I am not sure I can see what the big story is with Cybertiger and his mother. They both disapprove of David Southall. This fact may not be without interest, but it is not in any way sensational.

The big story, dickhead, is that Cybertiger, Dr Mark Struthers, who recently clumsily dodged the question as to whether or not he gives or recommends Meningitis jabs to his patients, and also works for a practice that actively encourages its elderly patients to get 'flu jabs, spends a lot of his time on the JABS forum (an anti-vaccination forum) being personally abusive about Professor David Southall, a man who was roundly condemned in a report that his mother was partially responsible for. That report was (which had nothing to do with vaccination), in itself, castigated by pretty much everyone except Dr Mark. Dr Mark wrote to the BMJ (the journal that you're always so proud of when they print one of your rabid responses John - it's not a medical paper, it's a comment on a blog, dickhead) to say how unfair the vitriol aimed at his mum's report was, while claiming no interest. Dr Mark now sees fit to get back at the nasty man who caused his mum so much pain and anguish by swearing at him on the JABS forum. Awww. How sweet. I'm sure she's ever so proud.

See it now, dickhead?

(Did I mention that John Stone is a dickhead?)

Loony at the school gates

It seems to be full moon wherever Truth Seeker lives today. It's no wonder you don't have friends, you arse…

I used to be quite open about our childrens non vaccinated status but am more wary these days as some parents are being brain washed into thinking we are dangerous and somehow putting their vaccinated child at risk

Or, to put it another way, some parents are capable of rational thought, and don't just believe every half-baked idea they read on the internet. They also probably don't like the insinuation that they're being brainwashed, especially when it comes from a gibbering loon who stares over their shoulder with wild eyes while talking to them about the secret courts and men in black who are going to take their children away from them. LOOK AT YOURSELF, YOU MORON!

And another thing… *RANT RANT RANT*

The kind of foaming lunacy that Truth Seeker posts could come from the "rejected for being too mental" drawer at the Daily Mail… The first paragraph here could be straight from the Jabs-o-matic at the bottom of the page…

Er dont start this in the first place, look at the big picture of new labour creating paranoia and scaremongering and assumption of guilty till proven innocent, this is just another step that is happening all around us.
Plastic policeman in place of real police
Nurses making desicions only doctors should.
Terror laws used for trivial spying on innocent people by councils.
Park wardens asked to approach single men in parks as potential molesters.
Dads afraid to take daughters picture winning a swimming gala.

Amusing that a JABS forum member is accusing others of "creating paranoia" and "scaremongering".

More on AIDS

While I appreciate that few people are likely to turn to JABS as an immediate source for AIDS treatment advice, I still find it disturbing that Rosemary is putting out this kind of unmitigated rubbish.

Obviosly taking anti-retrovirals is Not a good idea if you are HIV+

'Most common cause of deaths among HIV+ patients is LIVER FAILURE caused by taking TOXIC DRUGS'

Wednesday night whimsy

Gus The Fuss has gone up massively in my estimation. He appears to be a fan of avant-garde noise rock bands, punctuating his posts in the manner of Godspeed You! Black Emperor.

Trust me I’m! Not a doctor??

Cybertiger - it's a family thing

One of Cybertiger's personal bugbears is a chap by the name of Professor David Southall, a paediatrician who found notoriety in the Sally Clark case. That's often the reason Cybertiger states for his loathing of the man - but actually, he's not telling the whole truth.

To give you a flavour of Cybertiger's fury whenever the name is mentioned, here are a few quotes:

"They CANNOT be SERIOUS!!! The man is dangerous and a menace to society."

"But Southall doesn't do apology, never, ever - the arrogant bas**rd!"

"I hear Southall (aka spotty Leopard) is now saving children's lives in Africa. Pity the Africans!"

In 2000, a report of an investigation into Professor Southall's work (unrelated to the Sally Clark case) was published; this report (the Griffiths Report) was scathing of Professor Southall, his methods and ethical practices. (Guardian report)

However, the Griffiths report was itself heavily criticised; "We believe that almost every statement made about the design, conduct, and reporting of the neonatal continuous negative extrathoracic pressure (CNEP) trial in the Griffiths report was ill informed, misguided, or factually wrong. " (More from The Guardian here)

Pretty damning stuff - the Government came under pressure to withdraw the report.

What does this have to do with Cybertiger - Dr Mark Struthers? Well… one of the members of the panel that drew up that discredited Griffiths report was one Joyce Struthers - little Mark's mum. Is Mark simply going after Southall at every opportunity because Mum asked him to? Or because she didn't manage to "get" him, is he attempting to right a perceived slight on the family name? Does Dr Mark still live with Mum?

I'd like to state now that I am not expressing any opinion of the ethical rights and wrongs of any aspect of Professor Southall's behaviour - merely pointing out Dr Mark's, um, "conflict of interest", and why he brings him into every possible thread on JABS, even when he has nothing to do with vaccination…

Heads can explode from paranoia y'know...

Truth Seeker and Janet have their say on a non-story about tradesmen being encouraged to report child abuse and to not just ignore it…

Truth Seeker: …these people have secret courts to cover up vaccine damage and take children away from them with evidence that cannot be even heard by the parents

Janet: The new Child Protection Policy is devised to assist the covering up of medical negligence and vaccine damage

I suspect these people never leave the house for fear their children may be abducted by the MenInBlack from the Department of Health.

Rosemary's theory on AIDS

As I've pointed out before, Rosemary believes anything she reads on the internet regarding gene mutation. Now she's trying to convince the world that HIV is a genetic condition, after she's read "some research" that "proves" it. No link to the research of course, or any mention of its credentials…

Just recently I was given access to some research which proves that this particular genetic mutation is also associated with and can result in a HIV infection.

So I shall be providing the exact details of the function of this gene and mutated protein because as a parent of an affected child who has this neurodegenerative condition I would like some answers ???????

I would like to know the ORIGINS OF THIS GENE ? and WHY ? these children have ended up inheriting this mutated gene...particularly why they have ended up with a gene that results in a HIV infection ??

Drinking from the cup of Gus

Looks like Cybertiger and Gus are now regular drinking buddies. This man´s allegedly a DOCTOR for crying out loud! What on earth is he talking about?

The pharmacovigilant operative, passionate about drug safety, knows nothing about statins … so defends them to the hilt by tying himself in the silliest of semantic knots. Guff like this can’t be made up: you are a weird creature, tom puff!

PS. I thought you weren’t talking to me, so "contemptible" I be.

It´s official - he´s a cock.

More gibberish

Again - not sure what Gus is trying to say here:

Cheap as chips Occam Ye ! another impartial FROM an impartial body,on the effacy of vaccines . I fell of mee seat when I opened that one LAAAARRFFING ..Try going into the butchers and asking about the benefits of being a vegetarian,but then again its coming up to Xmas and the butcher will be looking for that Xtra bit of dosh..sooo the answer jus might not be fair ,just like the Gp when you ask about vaccines like you I suppose??

(Apologies if postings are a bit ad-hoc over the next few days - I´m away, and not sure how regular internet access is going to be!)

Wearing stupidity with pride

A new poster has just turned up at JABS, and immediately announces that they're the kind of credulous moron who believes everything they read on the internet provided it's not backed up with any kind of evidence: Manyoaks writes:

My apologies if this inappropriate. In my opinion MMR is involved with autism.

My goal: To identify the cause of regressive autism, get it disseminated and end my research and go hiking in Yosemite.

Background: I have no family members with autism. I know no autistic individuals. I found an Internet bulletin board were the posters reported that treating sleep apnea also treated reflux, colitis and irritable bowel syndrome.

In summary: "I know nothing about this, have no real interest, but some bloke told me, so it must be true." It's people like this that make me despair…

Cybertiger is a cock

OK - here's an "admin" type post I've been threatening for a while.

Dr Mark Struthers, of the Flitwick Surgery has been posting on this blog, since its inception, as "Cybertiger".

To date, he has yet to make a single comment that isn't simply abusive, aimed either at me personally, or at other commenters.

Personal abuse directed at me doesn't worry me. It's abuse aimed at other commenters that annoys me. So, do I:

a. Delete all the posts he's made and ban him from commenting in future?
b. Keep the shit he's already written, but ban him from making future postings?
c. Keep the stuff that he's written, but filter and delete any future postings that are simply abusive?
d. Just keep allowing him to post whatever shit fills his tiny mind with a view to compiling it into a book and posting it to his employers?

You see - Dr Struthers is a cock. However, I don't approve of censorship. So… I'd really rather just say to Dr Mark "I'm A Prime Arsehole" Struthers: "Mark - if you wish to keep commenting on this blog, please make your comments relevent. If they're not relevant, or are simply abusive, they may well be deleted."

Any thoughts are most welcome - on this thread, anything abusive from Dr Struthers will be deleted. Because he's a cock. For now, I won't delete any of his other posts.

I hope that's fair.

More paranoia

Suba should really be locked up for his (or her) own safety - everything and everyone seems to be out to get him. This time, on the news that an Ebola vaccine is being developed in the Netherlands and the United States:

Expect an Ebola outbreak in the US or the Netherlands in the next few years by accident or by design

That's right Suba - the New World Order is planning to massacre the world's population in one of the most horrible ways imaginable. Now - go and have a lie down.

Pphhht.

Again, not vaccine related, but funny. :-) I know my spelling isn't 100% - whose is? - but if you were typing this, you'd check, surely?

Incidently, there is a difference between 'mistake' and 'negligence'. A mistake is, for example, spelling the word callender with an 'e' instead of an 'a'.

Thank you laura_c_a. (I know a joke about C&A knickers…)

Foaming AIDS madness

How any of the JABS crowd expect to be taken seriously about vaccines when they post crap like this about AIDS is completely beyond me. Suba will be claiming the Moon Landings were faked and that the Loch Ness Monster lives next door soon.

I can assure you that the creation of the AIDS virus by the WHO was not just a diabolical scientific exercise that got out of hand. It was a cold-blooded successful attempt to create a killer virus which was then used in a successful experiment in Africa. So successful in fact that most of central Africa may be wiped out, 75,000,000 dead within 3-5 years.

It was not an accident. It was deliberate. In the Federation Proceedings of the United States in 1972, WHO said: "In relation to the immune response a number of experimental approaches can be visualised". They suggested that a neat way to do this would be to put their new killer virus (AIDS) into a vaccination program, sit back and observe the results. "This would be particularly informative in sibships," they said. That is, give the AIDS virus to brothers and sisters and see if they die, who dies first and of what, just like using rats in a laboratory.

They used small pox vaccine for their vehicle and the geographical sites chosen in 1972 were Uganda and other African states, Haiti, Brazil and Japan. The present or recent past of AIDS epidemiology coincides with these geographical areas.

I'm so glad I can be assured of that. Loon.

Just a quick one (oo-err)

Not really an example of JABS poster stupidity, but it did make me laugh. From the Pope of JABS and all-round foaming-at-the-mouth-pompous-arsehole, John Stone:

I am running out of friends and acquaintances

Really? Funny that.

Killing with homeopathy

It's often said by advocates of homeopathy that homeopathy never killed anyone. Well, Hannah's son is a statistic waiting to happen. Having been prescribed an epipen to dispense emergency adrenaline in case of severe allergic reaction or anaphylactic shock, this is what Hannah does.

...there was an article in the BMJ 3-4 years ago about deaths following anaphylactic shock which was very interesting. There are (or were at the time) 20 deaths per year, but HALF of them were due to incorrect doses of adrenalin being administered. That really shocked me at the time, but doesn't surprise me now.

I don't take my son's epipen out with us now (not that you can overdose on an epipen), but use a homeopathic remedy (Apis) very effectively.

If he has an allergic reaction bad enough to warrent an epipen, she's quite possibly going to kill her own son. And she's proud of this.

Antibiotic-resistant bugs

Several posters on JABS are worried (and quite reasonably so) about MRSA and other antibiotic resistant nasties. Obviously, they blame it on the big pharmaceutical companies, and doctors, for their over-eagerness to prescribe antibiotics. However, it's not going to help that you have morons like jennyr around:

I had the most horrible cold recently which ended up being a potentially nasty chest infection. I think it was because I had been working with nursery aged children who had recently been jabbed. I have never had such a bad illness before. As I was worried about a serious secondary infection such as pneumonia or bronchitis, I put myself on antibiotics (get them abroad) because I KNEW that the local GP practice would send me away saying it was 'just' a viral infection

For some reason I wasn't massively surprised when no-one pointed this out to her.

Utter desperation

Rosemary is now invoking the bible, and claiming vaccination is against God's will. So, with no science to back up her wild claims, she tries claiming a giant invisible sky fairy is on her side.

Basic guidelines were given to the children of Israel for the sake of their health. Deuteronomy 12:23 reminds us that our blood stream is our lifeline. When that lifeline is contaminated, disease/infection sets in until the body is rid of it. How does injecting the life line of our children with residual components of cell lines from aborted babies, animal DNA and the disease contaminants their tissues (used in manufacturing) carry, formaldehyde, aluminum hydroxide (known for killing cells/tissue), mercury, bacteria and virusess. How does this compute into "God gave us modern medicine"?

To quote from a Toy Dolls album:

"We're MAD!" I was going to slow down a bit after yesterday's bumper crop of buffoonery, and do an "admin" kind of post. You know: "Thanks for reading, here's what's changed in the last couple of months… etc". I was going to. Then I read this, the latest installment in the "I want to be as mad as Gus The Fuss" wars, from Truth Seeker.

My mistake its 0.5mg per dose of highly toxix reactive aluminium, not 0.5g.
However as most kids have fluoride this will ensure it passes the blood brain barrier.

At some point, Mr Seeker's brain appears to have leaked out of his ears, as he clearly has less than one µclue about, well, anything. "Kids have fluoride"? That's possibly the most meaningless string of words I've read since, oh… last night.

It's a bumper day for stupidity!

"Seonaid" has posted this rather splendid piece of crap - it may be a quote from some other cretin, but hey, as they're so fond of saying, "if an idiot claims the sun rises in the morning, is he an idiot for saying it"?

I read your excellent article about Dr Moulden's work. He is right that vaccines cause microvascular strokes, but that is just the tip of the iceberg. They cause all allergies, autoimmune diseases, cancer, non-traumatic seizures, genetic defects, etc.

I should point out that there are well understood mechanisms for many of these - and none of them involve vaccines.

Is there a full moon today or something?

NOW tell me that these people aren't mental

"Jacquia" has posted a remarkable rant about viruses, triggered, it seems, by her being quoted in that well known scientific journal, "The Brighton Evening Argus And Liar". Some of it seems to be unattributed quote, and some seems to be all her own work. It matters not - she's mental, and dangerous.

A virus is simply a “poison” which provides the growth of microorganisms that are parasitic. “Virus” comes from a Latin word root meaning “poison,” hence viral infections are nothing but severe cases of “blood poisoning”…

Viral infections like the Human Papillomavirus that manifest on the skin indicates that the body’s blood and lymph fluids are toxic…

Right you are, you dozy cow. Blood is toxic, and a virus is blood poisoning. No! It isn't! Go and read a biology textbook! Maybe starting with The Ladybird Book Of Virology. How do these people manage to walk and breathe at the same time?

It's the monkey viruses!

I mentioned Rosemary a while ago, and her obsession with monkey viruses altering people's DNA while they sleep. Here's a perfect example. What, for JABS anyway, would seem to be a perfectly reasonable post - a cut and paste about the United Reformed Church in the USA questioning the need for mercury in vaccines - led, in eight posts, to this fine example of utter bonkersness.

So benefits of vaccination?
i don't know of any....mainly because I am aware how much damage is being caused by the vaccines, especially the vaccine viruses, and contaminants like the animal viruses [retroviruses] that have been transmitted via the vaccines.

Therefore how can there be ANY? Benefits of vaccination?

We now have 1000's of endogenous retroviruses transmitted via vaccines sitting in our genome causing chronic diseases.
Diseases that we never had to worry about before vaccination !
Diseases that have been created by vaccination.

With all these changes to our DNA, it's odd that we've not regressed in two generations to a state of mumbling idiocity, with no more self-awareness than a haversack. (Although some posters on JABS seem to be evidence for the theory that this has in fact already happened.)

For those who may be a little worried about these DNA altering viruses, the only person in the world who's ever claimed to have identified them is Dr John Martin, of the "Centre For Complex Infectious Diseases" - a website that, surprisingly, sells treatments to reverse the DNA mutations. In other words, a grade-A nutter and con man. Rosemary appears to be the only person in the world who believes him.

Losing it

Truth Seeker is getting wilder and wilder in his claims. While discussing the HPV vaccines, he posts this:

Its more like 20 deaths now bad commercial scientist,defender of iatrogenic death and junk science, unless proven otherwise i will assume occams razor.

Then to back this wild claim up, he posts this:

Across the clinical studies, 17 deaths were reported in 21,464 male and female subjects. The events reported were consistent with events expected in healthy adolescent and adult populations. The most common cause of death was motor vehicle accident (4 subjects who received GARDASIL and 3 placebo subjects), followed by overdose/suicide (1 subject who received GARDASIL and 2 subjects who received placebo), and pulmonary embolus/deep vein thrombosis (1 subject who received GARDASIL and 1 placebo subject). In addition, there were 2 cases of sepsis, 1 case of pancreatic cancer, and 1 case of arrhythmia in the group that received GARDASIL, and 1 case of asphyxia in the placebo group.

Posting data that shows the opposite of what the poster claims (hoping, presumably, that most people won't actually read it) seems to be becoming a more popular tactic among this lot.

More top notch medical advice

This time from "jacquia", one of those morons who apparently researched her medical degree by reading the literature in Neals Yard. Here, she's exhorting people to avoid the HPV vaccine, and instead use the "natural remedy" Pau d'Arco.

Researchers have used Pau d'Arco for AIDS, inflammation of all types, allergies, all types of cancer, as a blood builder, for liver disease, diabetes, warts, Hodgkins disease, lupus, malaria, polyps and many other diseases, so it's usefulness has long been established.

Wouldn't it be wiser to use something that is all natural and more gentle on your body...then something that no one knows the end results?

Actually, as Occam48 points out, there's no evidence that it's effective for any condition, it's banned in Canada as it's not been shown to be safe, and it's actually highly toxic in higher doses. So, not really an alternative to an HPV vaccine - more an alternative to drinking paraquat.